Pavlo Petrenko: Zelensky's people will need our help

“Apostrophe" tried to agree the interview with the Minister of Justice Pavlo Petrenko during a year. And it became possible to meet when the political situation in the country has changed significantly. Today Petrenko is not only the Minister, but also the candidate for people's deputies from the party of Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman. He is a representative of the political force from the top ten, which almost a month before the elections does not gain even 2% with the necessary 5%. The issue of ratings is unpleasant for the Minister. After all, "Narodnyi Front", with which it he associated, has long had support below 1%. And here again, Petrenko is in a weak team.

During the short time of conversation, more than ten times he mentioned the lack of competence that of the new political forces, and that the team of Groysman has it. And he spent almost 5 minutes of interview on discussion of a condition of roads in the country . But he tried to avoid most of the answers to the main questions.

Why Minister needs a mandate, whether he wants to be a Prime Minister, as well as whether the appointment of Andrii Bohdan to the position of Head of the Presidential Administration is legal - that is what PAVLO PETRENKO talked about in an interview to "Apostrophe".

- First explain, please, why you decided to participate in elections and to go to the Parliament together with team of the Prime Minister-the Minister Volodymyr Groysman?

- I generally want to remind my story of getting into politics. Back in 2012, being then a lawyer, I went to protest against Viktor Yanukovych. Then I joined the team of Arseniy Yatseniuk. A lot of us went to the protest "Ukraine against Yanukovych" without any purpose to get any mandates or positions.

Also in 2013, I came out to take part in the Revolution of dignity not for a position. We together with lawyers began to pull people out of the prisons, which were thrown without a trial, without investigation. At the same time, during Maidan, the first government was formed at the suggestion of activists. And I was promoted to Minister of Justice. I got into this office, having no desire to head the Ministry at all. But then there was no queue wanting to go to the Executive branch and take responsibility. Therefore, these 5 years have become for me a period of great responsibility, experience, rethinking what is valuable in life.

Now I do not go to Parliament for a mandate. For me, the mandate is not the aim itself. As well as the position of Minister.

- Then why?

- I have a desire to save what was gained. Because now we are faced with the risks not only of revenge, but also of incompetence. I don't mind new people at all. But the worst thing is incompetence. If the Parliament is like this, the country will stop developing or will start to fall back. Because the Parliament is the center of decision-making, the formation of the government. And it is unfair to label all those people who have worked for these 5 years that they are "old". And I would not want everything done for the benefit of Ukrainians to be destroyed.

Therefore, my main task as a citizen is to keep this country moving towards success. And how can this be done? To give a support in Parliament and to be ready to make quick and competent decisions.

- How do you want to lend a shoulder in Parliament, going to the elections with the party, which has no more than 1.5% of the rating (according to the latest sociological data, the support of the Groysman’s party equals to 1.9%)?

- It makes no sense to talk about ratings now. I saw the publication of opinion polls. Basically, citizens were interviewed before the Congress of the "Ukrainian strategy".

- Groysman has long ago announced his decision to go to Parliament.

- We will see an objective rating and trust of people on July, 21. And each member of the team, which was presented by Volodymyr Groysman, has its own history of real actions, success and competence.

Ukrainians will choose who they want to see in Parliament, who will implement the decisions in the truest sense of the word. You can be a good guy or a good girl, but having a lot of responsibility for hundreds of thousands of people can be difficult to make quick decisions. As for me, Ukraine is definitely not a place to experiment with the fate of people.

There must be competence. It's like I would never do surgery without experience and understanding.

- Are you trying to draw parallels as Klitschko - that Volodymyr Zelensky is the pilot who isn't able to operate the plane?

- No, I don't draw any parallels. I explain to you my feelings as a voter and a citizen. I am definitely not the person who was looking for the opportunity to be a Deputy in different convocations of Parliament.

The Prime Minister Groysman's team proved that we're not just talking. We're actually talking just a little bit. We set specific goals and achieve results in various areas - in justice, in economy, even in the construction of roads. It is unfair when someone says that no roads were built.

- Perhaps, it is. But this is not your area of responsibility.

- The Ministry of Justice is a unique ministry that analyzes all the decisions of the government. And I had to get knowledge 5 years in various spheres – starting from roads and ending with budgetary financing, pensions, kindergartens and so forth. Therefore, I can speak in detail and competently about virtually any area of responsibility of the Groysman’s government.

- But let's talk politics for now. At the Congress of the "Ukrainian strategy" you said to "Apostrophe" that all members of "Narodnyi Front", which are represented in the top ten, were agreed with Yatseniuk...

- That's not what I said. NF, as a party, decided not to go to the elections. The second point of the decision was as follows: all members of the political force were told that we, as self-sufficient politicians and citizens, should go to these elections with those teams that share our values. Volodymyr Groysman, with whom I have a personal history of working for three years in the government, forming his team, independently determined who to invite from competent people to join him. Such a proposal came to me as well.

- Was the offer received personally or through Yatseniuk?

- I have direct communication with Groysman.

- But before the merger with Groysman you were a member of the Political Council of the NF.

- Yes, this proposal was made to me personally. Of course, I had the opportunity to think and consult.

- When was the offer made?

- I got it before the Congress of "Ukrainian strategy". Yes, I consulted with Arseniy Yatseniuk, but the final decision was made by myself. And I will never ask to get into any parties just to receive the mandate. I did not come to politics that way, and I do not have the aim to get a seat, a mandate.

- That is if there was no proposal from Groysman to take part in the elections, you wouldn't have to think about it?

- NF has decided that we were not going to the elections.

- But it doesn't prevent other representatives of NF to find their ways in the political sphere. What other political forces have asked you to join?

- I'll tell you something. Perhaps, Groysman's proposal was the only one I would agree to. From the point of view of my human values, based on the palette of the political forces that are now going to the elections (pause), I would not agree to join anyone else. Because, conditionally, there are old political parties and there are new ones. The society has great expectations about the new ones, but so far we do not know anything about them, and it is still a beautiful picture. And when you have a reputation and your own history, then you decide to go with the team that does not just give promises to people, but always fulfills them.

- But you DO understand that if now "Ukrainian strategy" has a rating about 1,9%, it doesn't give guarantees that less than in a month the party will gain 5% of support, and doesn't give guarantees that even you can gave enough votes to go to the Parliament?

- I once again want to tell you: we address people and we ask from them the mandate and support. We show what we have done for today. We know how to make this country more successful in various sectors. We need the support and mandate of the people to do this. We do not hide from responsibility. During elections people will give an assessment, and it will be the best rating.

- Let's see how different you are from the others. Who finances Groysman's party?

- The party is financed by small and medium businesses. There are no oligarchs among the sponsors. It can be easily checked in reports which the party will publish. Also, funds are contributed by the party members to the account of the party, personally - Groysman.

- And what about you? You are not a member of the party, but you are still in the top ten.

- If there is such need, my savings allow it. I was not asked yet. But these are voluntary contributions.

- Does in our country small and medium business operate so well that it is enough also for financing a party? Now all political forces claim that they receive money from this business.

- Contributions can be different - 30, 50, 100 thousand hryvnias. These are affordable amounts.

- 100 thousand hryvnias – from a small business?

- For the average entrepreneur, who has 200-300 employees, it is not a problem to transfer 100-200 thousand hryvnias. But I think it is better to ask this question to the election team members. Moreover, we have adopted legislation that obliges all parties to publish financial statements during the electoral process.

- Former members of Groysman's team assure that the Prime Minister's campaign is financed by two oligarchs - Viktor Pinchuk and Rinat Akhmetov. They told about it to “Apostrophe”. If journalists prove this information in the near future, will it affect your decision to go to the elections with Groysman?

- I know that's not true.

- And if there's a proof?

- I will not participate in a campaign or party where there are people with a dubious reputation, or if there is non-transparent funding and sponsorship by oligarchs. But I think it's a myth and a fake.

- But you don't give a clear answer.

- If this hypothetically proved to be true, I wouldn't be in this team. Because it's a priori unacceptable to me.

- Why did the NF decide not to participate in the elections? Is it because of the low ratings?

- You're back to the ratings again. It was a mature adult decision... You can simply see the history of ratings and anti-ratings. NF in 2015 immediately became the object of a dirty information campaign.

- Who ordered it?

- It was people from the team of Petro Poroshenko. The records and statements of the fugitive People's Deputy Oleksandr Onyshchenko played a major role. There was horrible psychological pressure. Yatseniuk then acted as a statesman, not as a classic politician. As a classic politician, he had to come out with a public statement that coalition partners stabbed a knife in the back. But he didn't, though he was worried. He actually sacrificed his ratings, but maintained stability in the country.

And in 2016, when the then President really wanted to have a controlled Cabinet of Ministers, for the first time in the history of Ukrainian politics, the Prime Minister resigned, and his fraction remained in the coalition. In order to maintain stability in this country. And how is it possible with this baggage of lies to go to the elections?

- Was there any offer from Poroshenko's team to you to go together to elections?

- I didn't conduct such negotiations and at all I didn't consider such possibility. And there were no such proposals.

- How did the NF react to the fact that one of the leaders and persons of the party, the speaker of the Verkhovna Rada Andrii Parubiy was in the top ten of "European solidarity"? He joined Poroshenko who "drowned" Yatseniuk, did not he?

- As to all team members, an honest and open decision was made: team members can go to the elections with other political forces of their choices at their sole discretion. Parubiy did not hide his choice, he said this at a fraction meeting. It is his right.

- When did he announce it?

- When we made the decision to participate in the elections. He announced that he received such a proposal.

- Who else from the Cabinet of Minister got to the electoral list of the Prime Minister?

- You'll see. I can guarantee that there are definitely no people with a dubious reputation.

- Are you considering the possibility of re-heading the Ministry of Justice?

- I didn't want to be the Minister of Justice in 2014. And even more I did not want it in 2015, when I realized the scope of responsibility and challenges. The issue is not about positions. If Ukrainian citizens give us support and mandate, we will definitely create a success story of every Ukrainian.

- That is, if you are offered, you will agree?

- And why do you think that I can only be the Minister of Justice? (he smiles)

- Do you want to be the Prime Minister?

- We have many worthy candidates for this position. We have a wonderful Prime Minister, who now heads the party “Ukrainian strategy”.

- In your opinion, if the party of Groysman gets to the Parliament is there any sense to go into a coalition with the "Servant of the people"?

- Let's wait for the election. We have shown a specific agenda, what is being done and what needs to be done.

- Then I have the question about the new Presidential Administration. From the legal point of view, how do you assess the work of the PA? Andrii Bohdan's appointment as the head of PA is already called to be the violation of the law on lustration, but no mechanisms to dismiss him legally now exist.

- I do not want to evaluate the work of the new PA because it is a separate institution. The new President was elected recently. Yes, there are lot of requests from society. Therefore, his team should be given the opportunity to work. If they do the good things that are necessary for Ukrainian citizens, their success story will be the success story of the whole country. If they make mistakes, we are ready to help, having experience in public administration, how to do better.

- So there are no mistakes now?

- I once again want to tell you: I won't give any assessments. There are a lot of new people who have never worked in the civil service. And these people need to get management skills. Therefore, I wish them success in all good and useful undertakings for our state.

- And what about Bohdan's appointment?..

- Actually, the answer is very simple. The law on the purification of power determines that the subject who appoints a person to the position, checks for compliance with the law on the purification of power and takes a personnel decision. The subject who appoints the Head of the presidential Administration is the President. The Ministry of Justice has no control over the implementation of the law on lustration, the legislation does not provide for this. We only keep the lustration register.

The Ukrainian President appointed the head of PA. From the point of view of professional skills, the person in this position should understand how the government works. Bohdan has experience in this sphere. That's why there were reasons for the appointment to this position, I think.

- So Bohdan's appointment is legal, isn’t it?

- (He is getting nervous) I do not give evaluation of the activities of the Presidential Administration. The subject of the appointment is responsible for the appointment.

- What is your relationship with the new Administration? Do you often communicate with its representatives?

- If there are some questions, then, of course, we communicate. For example, lately I spoke with Oleksandr Danyliuk after his appointment to the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine.