Journalist Anna Maksymchuk spoke with the head of the Main Intelligence Directorate of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, Kyrylo Budanov, about the war, his personal life, and asked him to give predictions and advice.
- Mr. General, everyone knows you as the serious head of the Main Intelligence Directorate. And I would like to start from the beginning. Kirill Budanov in childhood - what was he like? Obedient or a robber?
- And what period?
- Small.
- How old is a little one? Recently, a new gradation was released, at what age a person is considered young, old. Which one are you interested in according to the new gradation?
- 45 is young.
- That's why I'm asking, what time are you talking about?
- Let's say 14-16 years old, a critical age for parents.
- At 14-16, well, there were difficulties.
- Did you get nuts from your father?
- Not much. It didn't make sense anymore, I guess, at that time.
- Why did you decide to become a scout? When did this push come? Who did you meet? Maybe there was a hero you liked?
- It's not a secret at all. It's the influence of mass culture. Probably books, movies, and the like.
- Who is your favorite character from the movie?
- "Professional." It was just the right image. I liked it.
WHAT SKILLS SHOULD A SPY? AND WHEN WILL FILM ABOUT MODERN SPIES BE MADE?
- Today, please tell me what the skills of a scout are. What should a scout have?
- Have a mind. Everything else can be worked out. If you don't have a mind, then, excuse me, there will be no cinema.
- There are famous films about agent 007, about Stirlitz. Please tell me, is there a Ukrainian Stirlitz or agent 007 - could a film be made about him?
- Well, I don't think we'll make films like that. There are a few people who live a similar life even now.
THE COOLEST OPERATIONS OF THE GUR OF THIS WAR
- I've recorded a lot of interviews with intelligence officers at the front, and it always ends like this: "Good afternoon and goodbye." Because you can't ask anything, no one will tell you anything. So if we talk about the coolest operations, about the turning points of this war - what were those operations?
- So, what kind of operations are you interested in? Special operations or intelligence operations?
- Special.
- They are, in principle, already a publicly known object. There have been many of them recently. For example, the liberation of the aggregate plant in Vovchansk - this was a more or less interesting operation from a military point of view.
WHICH INTELLIGENCE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD AND IS THERE A DIFFERENCE IN THE GENDER OF THE INTELLIGENCE?
- If we compare the intelligence services of the world today, there are Mi5, Mi6, Mossad, and the GUR of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, is there any rating of who is the best, the most effective?
- The question is who will conduct this rating.
- You cooperate with other intelligence agencies — that's understandable. Which of these intelligence agencies is an example for you to follow? Perhaps they have some similar approaches?
- Everyone has something to exchange. I mean experience, practice and the like. Therefore, we try to take from all our partners what we consider to be strong there, and they take from us. That's what intelligence cooperation is.
- Girls, boys — who is more effective? Is there no gender divide?
- Well, there's definitely no difference in gender between us.
WHAT SHOULD A RECONNAISSANCE DO IF CAPTURED?
- And if, God forbid, a scout is captured, what advice do you have for a person who is captured?
- Why do you need this, please tell me?
- You know, this is so interesting because you are a very deep person and analyze a lot, and you understand how in critical situations you need to quickly find a way out, so I'm wondering, what advice would you give?
- It depends on whether the person was engaged in operational activities or combat, let's say, specifically. If it was somewhere during the hostilities, well, there's no point in saying that I'm not me, I don't know anything at all. This will simply increase the amount of suffering that he will go through. While the result will be absolutely the same. My recommendations are always the following: if, God forbid, this happens, a person should try to hide, if he has such information, the ones that are actually valuable, and personal data makes no sense to try to hide, they are established very quickly and only double the problems and suffering that this person will eventually go through.
WILL THE ENEMY BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR CRIMES?
- Tell me, please, today we all see how much the enemy is mocking the Ukrainians in captivity.
- There are cases. Unfortunately, there are many.
- Will he respond later? After World War II, when the Germans responded, there for many decades.
- You know, your question itself contains the answer. The Germans have been answering for many years, but they have only answered for one reason: because they lost. And that's it.
ARE PROTESTS FOR THE RELEASE OF PRISONERS HARMFUL?
- Since we talked about captivity, I'll ask you, since your area of responsibility also includes the information field. As an information specialist, I'm always concerned when people come out and make a lot of protests about supporting the captives, isn't that harmful?
- It's harmful. Everyone knows about it. Well, but, in the end, I understand people. They need to feel somehow that they are doing something to get their relatives back. Although, in the end, they only cause problems for everyone. That's known, I think.
IS KYRYLO BUDANOV GOING TO ENTER POLITICS?
Is Kirill Budanov going to go into politics?
- I'm not planning anything right now. I'm at war, like everyone else in our country, it seems.
ABOUT THE IMPACT OF IPSO AND HOW TO TEACH SOCIETY TO CONSUME INFORMATION CORRECTLY?
- Please tell me, is IPSO an effective tool today?
- Of course.
- Does Ukraine often use IPSO on the territory of Russia?
- Often.
- The situation with the breakdown of mobilization - to what extent did you predict that this would happen in the information space?
- Do you mean that the enemy will try to conduct its strategic disinformation operations? Well, that's obvious. That's what we did in Russia. Especially at the beginning. Remember, they had mobilization in 22. There too, everything didn't go quite, as they say, smoothly. It just works. You take a real fact, which may not actually be that many, and you simply scale it up. No one can say that it's not true, because the footage is real, the people are real, everyone can recognize this person there, in principle. Everything is real. Only the scale of this is much larger. That's how the Russians work here. The same thing.
- And how to teach society to consume the right information?
- No way.
- So there's no prescription or pill?
- A scary answer?
- Scary.
- Well, that's true. Believe the official sources. But you live in the 21st century, you open your browser, go in, see tens of thousands of news resources, they will still have an impact.
WHAT IS THE MOST SECURE MESSENGER AND PHONE TODAY?
- You mentioned the browser. I will mention messengers. Please tell me, Telegram, Signal, Viber, WhatsApp — which is the safest way to communicate today.
- The safest. Well, if this doesn't seem strange after recent events, still, from what has been listed, Signal is much better protected as a messenger. But then again, if someone breaks their phone — messengers are very rarely broken — then it doesn't matter what messenger you have. Because they've already broken into your phone.
- Okay, if we talk about phones, is there a difference depending on the model of the phone, how easily it can be hacked. Because I know many politicians use a push-button phone.
- Nonsense. Because this is more of a Russian experience. Right? You mean him?
- Yes.
- There was already another goal there, the goal of control. So in order not to complicate their lives, they told everyone: "Use push-button phones." Regular GSM communication is intercepted with a 100% guarantee. So it's easier to control what people are talking about.
TECHNOLOGICAL WAR. WHAT'S NEXT?
- We mentioned the enemy, Russia. Tell me, please, today we understand that the Russian army is fighting in numbers. The professional military, which has been around since 1922, has already disappeared and today it is mostly mobilized. But here the situation is that the war is intense, and it is technological, we are strengthening and, unfortunately, we are strengthening the enemy.
- Yes.
- Today we have an army of drones. What else can we expect in the future? Fiber-optic drones, I remember you said that this is a trend of 25 years.
- Well, it's already in full swing. Well, but this is a modernization of what exists, in essence. To say that fiber-optic solutions are somehow new is not true. All ATGMs, Soviet anti-tank guided missiles, they all worked on wire. The essence is the same. These are solutions from the 70s, technological solutions. Now they've just, well, let's say, changed the wire to fiber-optic, essentially the same wire, and connected it not to an anti-tank missile, but to a drone. But I'll say it again: the solutions themselves are from the 70s.
- So the old school - does it remain, does it work?
- Why not? Normal solutions work normally. The only problem, both in Soviet systems and here: if the object being launched encounters some obstacle in the form of bushes, for example, the cable breaks. Therefore, when people try to use fiber optics in a wooded area, somewhere in the city, where there are still some wires left, and they say: "Bad drones, the fiber optics break"... So the problem is not in the drones, the problem is in the operator, who does not understand how it all works. There are, of course, problems with drones, but this is a negligible percentage.
- Today, if we were to describe, draw a portrait of our enemy, what kind of person would he be?
- Hmm, this is the first time I've heard such a question. Interesting. This will be a person of low, let's say, low standard of living, mostly, God forbid, with a complete secondary education, but, in principle, it's possible not. A person who has family problems. In principle, that's all.
- Does mobilization for money work there?
- Yes, and that's the point. There's no way to earn normal money. But there's already a family saying: "Come on, I want a fur coat and everything else too." Well, go ahead.
- You love predictions. What will happen to Russia after the war ends? The war will end, and all this... will return home. And we understand that there will be no such wages, and there will be no such large number of people who are now working for the army. What will happen to them next, if you predict?
- Well, first of all, they will not significantly reduce the number of armed forces. There are absolutely logical explanations for this. First of all, they need such a number according to their strategy. Now, well, about 50 percent of this entire military budget is eaten up by payments, military payments, one-time additional payments to fighters, payments for signing a contract, final payments if he lived to the end of the contract, payments for injuries, payments for death, and so on. The second part is payment for the purchase of ammunition. And the third is for repairs and maintenance of equipment. When the war ends, all these payments end, the problems go away, and a huge budget is released. Therefore, there will be no reduction.
- Can we really expect the collapse of the Russian Federation?
- Collapse by itself never happens anywhere.
- Destabilization of society?
- I say again: no such process in the world occurs by itself.
A LITTLE PERSONAL. IS KIRYLO BUDANOV A ROMANTIC, WHAT CAN CAUSE HIS EMOTIONS, WHAT ANIMALS DOES HE LOVE AND COLLECT?
- How do you, as a man, understand the situation that you and your family will always be a priority target for the enemy?
- It's normal. We've been living in this for many years. My wife and I, in principle, are not surprised by this.
- How do you support your wife? Are you a romantic?
- Looking at what you put into this term.
- I'll explain. For society, you are always a reserved person, with a cold, piercing gaze, even sometimes it's very difficult to bring out your emotions. I wonder what kind of person you are in life, that Kirill Budanov?
- How can I give myself an assessment? It would be strange. These questions should be addressed at least to my wife.
- Are there any emotions that can make you smile?
- A funny story, an open fool, many options.
- Have you ever cried in your life?
- Well, of course.
- Is this connected with some tragedy?
- Painful moments.
- What animals do you like?
- Basically, I really like all animals. I like amphibians. Reptiles, frogs, all that. I really like snakes.
- We learned so many interesting facts today. What do you collect besides stamps and maps?
- These are mostly old stamps.
- How many of them do you already have?
- I think a lot, I've never just counted.
- What is the last and most memorable one among them?
- The most memorable for me is the first stamp in the world. Well, a copy. It is far from the rarest in the world, but for me it is unique.
- Each such collection has a certain price. Do you have an idea of how much it is?
- No. Well, if you think it's billions, then no.
- No, I don't think it's billions.
- That's what I'm talking about.
- The last book you read.
- I can tell you which one I'm reading right now - "Conservatism". It's a British publication, very interesting, with interesting thoughts.
- What was the last movie you watched?
- Some kind of horror movie. Honestly, I don't remember.
KYRYLO BUDANOV IN CIVILIAN LIFE. DOES HE LIKE TO COOK?
- Please tell me your golden hour, when you plan the surgery, what time does it happen approximately? Well, for me, 4:30 is my time when I wake up.
- 4:30 in the morning is also morning. But, well, I think it's mostly from 7:00 to 11:00.
- You won't find you in public cities.
- Sometimes you can meet me in the store. Sometimes they do.
- It's clear that you consume something. However, meeting you in the store...
- It really happens. Sometimes you can go with your wife.
- Will people recognize it?
- Yes, it happens. It would probably be more correct to say: most people recognize it.
- And how do they react at this moment?
- No way. Sometimes they ask: can I take a picture? Well, please, if it helps someone, it's not that difficult for me.
- Well, to be honest, as a consumer, I wouldn't pass by, I would stop you, ask a few questions. Do you give answers?
- Well, in the stores they didn't ask me any questions, to be honest. And thank God.
- If you buy the products, okay, do you cook them yourself?
- Yes.
- What is your favorite dish?
- My favorite dish or something I can cook?
- What are you cooking?
- Burgers.
- Burger with veal or without?
- Even from turkey. I like that.
- Unexpectedly, honestly.
- I like to cook, but everything that is fried. Everything that is cooked there is not mine.
- Very interesting, honestly, you even revealed yourself in a completely different way today.
- Listen, no one asked, I didn't tell.
- Before the war, let's remember this time, where did you like to relax? Is active recreation for you?
- You know, to be honest, I don't remember those times very well. 11 years is a pretty long time.
BUDANOV'S MILITARY OPERATIONS
- How did the war change you?
- I don't know, I think not much.
- And you went to operations, participated in them repeatedly, did you encounter problems such as PTSD?
- Me personally?
- Why am I asking, because many military personnel are experiencing this condition today.
- Well, this is a problem, let's say, a classic one in the world, and 99% of people who encounter it are people who, well, let's say, for some reason suddenly got into the war. And I am a professional soldier, I have lived my whole life consciously.
- Is fear your ally?
- Hmm. I don't know. Fear is bad, in principle.
- When going for surgery, is there a fear that you won't come back? Or is there none at all?
- No, otherwise, what's the point of going out.
- And it's clear that there are some skeletons in the closet? Were there any operations that you yourself are now considering, reviewing, and rethinking, that could have been done differently?
- There were many of them. That's understandable. You know, there are no people in the world who only had victories. There are a few people in history who are written about like that, but, to be honest, I doubt it.
- Well, you always have to make an idol and some kind of example.
- There was one Chinese emperor, about whom it is written that he never suffered defeat. There was another character in even more ancient times. That's all, in principle.
IS A PERSON WHO DOESN'T WANT TO DEFEND UKRAINE A CITIZEN?
- What would you advise today to those people who, you know, today some part of society still can't wake up and with motivation can somehow wake up...
"That's it, time for that is up. If he hasn't woken up in 11 years, then, well, it's probably not his."
- How can you motivate a person today to defend the country? What needs to be done now and in the future, for the future generation, to do this?
- A rhetorical question. I would even ask you a counter-question: how can there be a citizen of Ukraine who does not want to defend Ukraine, and is he a citizen after that?
- That's why I was waiting for your answer.
- If you think I'm afraid to give an answer, I'll give it to you. He can in no way consider himself a citizen and society should perceive him exactly as such, no matter how harsh it may sound. Someone can defend with a machine gun in their hands, someone can, as they say, forge victory in the rear. But everyone must work for this victory. And if a person says: "So what's my point here? Let someone else do it"... No, you're not a citizen.
- Tough, but fair. Watching your interviews, I see that you don't take your word for it. You're not afraid, no one can say later: "General, did you say too much there?"
- Well, let them say what the problem is? We have a democratic society. If I do not go beyond the scope of state secrets, this is my personal position. If I get involved in disclosing state secret facts, this is a completely different issue. But, as you can see, I will not get involved in them.
DOES SOCIETY NEED TO KNOW THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT THE WAR?
- Does society really need to know the truth about what is happening at the front?
- Society should be ready to learn the truth, probably over time. During war, knowing the whole truth, I think it's unnecessary. Otherwise, people might have different opinions. I'm not saying that reality is distorted or anything like that, no, it's just that people's consciousness is not adapted to the perception of the harsh truth in everyone, you don't need to test people with this, as they say. Everything should be dosed.
